117037-do-you-think-this-game-might-actually-die-page-6
Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4, Page 5, Page 6 Content See, but therein lies the crux of the problem. Either they can make one hard group instance that can be done by everybody, or they have to make 6 hard solo instances to ensure the mechanics can be overcome by each class solo. Making 6 solo instances is a disproportionate amount of work compared to a group instance when it comes to return on investment. It's why no game has ever done it before, and those that attempted solo progression of that nature made a single version and dumbed down the mechanics to the point where any class could walk in and beat it with very little effort. At that point, the risk does not justify the kinds of rewards as raiding. | |} ---- ---- "All" they'd need to do is implement the expedition scaling system in other instances that they want to allow small groups or solo players to complete and then have the scaling adjust the loot tables accordingly. Suddenly you have instances (story and otherwise) that appeal to a wider audience. ^ quotes because I'm sure it sounds a lot easier than it actually is. | |} ---- Regardless the amount of work it requires, scalable content is going to be the "thing" in MMO's. I'm not saying drop everything and do it NOAW! but it should be a priority research task. | |} ---- City of Heroes managed to do this over ten years ago, so it's very doable. The instance scaled to the number of people in your group when you entered the instance, and did further scaling based on player selected difficulty settings. If that sort of thing is coded into the base mechanics of how the game generates an instance when players enter, it's largely a "one and done" task for the developers. You know, I find it depressing how many times in the last two years I've been part of a forum discussion in various places where I've started a post with the sentence "City of Heroes did this over ten years ago, so it's very doable." I should make a macro on keyboard for it. And MMO developers should be forced to study that game for possible solutions to so many recurring problems that we see in MMORPG after MMORPG. | |} ---- Even if it's scalable, there's no way to make a solo instance actually difficult without tailoring it to the player's class. Could be easier with a group of 2 if you assume either a tank dps, tank healer, or dps healer composition. | |} ---- I'm not sure that's true. Maybe it is. But for example, is there any class that can't solo Rotter? Is there any class that it is trivially easy to solo Rotter? I haven't played all the classes, so I don't know, but I have to create a special build to do it on my slinger by balancing heals and DPS. I assume with my warrior I'd have to split between tank and dps as well. Not that Rotter is a particularly interesting fight, mind you. | |} ---- Stalker can solo him easily in tank spec; it's almost laughably easy. On the other hand, if you're trying to dps him you need to get lucky with him not critting auto attacks, and you just dpsing fast enough while not standing in red (a losing proposition unless you're raid geared or just really lucky to crit a lot and not get crit yourself). Alternatively, you could probably do it as DPS with Stim Drones or Nano Dart and open up a whole lot of room for error. I expect it's possible to kill him on every class, but clearly he's not worth raid gear as a reward either. | |} ---- ---- ---- Did you mean the Empress? For my part the Empress is at least 100% easier to kill as DPS Stalker than Rotter is, and I usually end that fight well above 50% HP. Everything is laughably easy in tank spec though unless you're trying for 5+ primes solo. Stalkers don't even have the space to put 3 interrupts on their bars most of the time, which is why Rotter is so much more of a pain in the butt. | |} ---- Oh sure- that's not my point. My point was that you have an encounter that is challenging across most classes (OK, stalkers can almost solo 5 man instances), so it's possible to design challenging content that is not specific to each class. I would expect raid worthy gear encounters to require: -Special hybrid spec -Require multiple pulls and bosses -Have multiple phases for bosses | |} ---- ---- I do like your idea about failure = lockout so they can't just brute force through it. That moves some of the difficulty away from the design of the actual encounter vs a specific class to the players' ability to adapt and execute. Still, there are some builds for some classes with which it is pretty hard to fail at anything. If I consider Tank Stalkers, I think there would always need to be a built in DPS check to force a hybrid spec because given enough time, Tank Stalker will always win. | |} ---- Yes, the queen, sorry. The quest (Exile side) is Queen for a Day but the mob is the Spider Empress. I can't imagine doing this stuff in engineer tank spec. I'm sure it could be done, just take forever (relatively speaking.) Biggest thing I've found with the Empress/Queen is the burrow attack MUST be interrupted or dodged (and it's fast so the latter is pretty tricky.). That one HURTS if it connects. The long range webshoot has a snare but can be easily avoided. | |} ---- I found if you continuously circle strafe her, if she succeeds at stunning you, the stun will place you outside her burrow red zone, making it a non issue. It is very easy to dodge out of if you're not stunned though. It doesn't take that much longer in tank spec, and if it is taking a while, other DPS always show up to help you anyways. | |} ---- The other thing that would be required of raid-worthy gear for a solo instance would be that the individual mechanics would have to be more challenging than the equivalent raid fights. For example, you need something more complex than dodging spew, handling the knockback, and dropping bombs correctly on x-89. Because if it's exactly the same but requiring no coordination, it's by default easier. You have to add challenge to make up for the lack of group coordination. | |} ---- Agreed. Movement protects against her web snare (usually the telegraph will be behind where you are, making it a leisurely effort to unsnare while she's targeting air). Circle strafing is pretty situationally dependent. The spider center area is quite easy to do this. The shoreline is a bit constrained for space, and the entry area has a lot of potential adds. So... your mileage may vary. Still eminently doable by most if not all classes in a variety of specs. | |} ---- ---- I prefer there to be some raid-exclusivity. I like the way TOR (and I think WoW) does it: You can only get set bonuses from raid drops. In TOR you can spend comms (end-game currency) on equivalent ilvl gear but the stat balance is less than optimal. | |} ---- ---- While I agree with almost all of what you say, I would like to chime in on the gear issue. I am a mostly solo player (since winter betas) in a terrific guild that is growing daily. I do enjoy the group content. My main issue is that I am extremely busy with my career and have had some family tragedy lately. I would like to be able to raid with my guild as a fill in type person and to do so I NEED better gear. I am an excellent player and do not want to be 'carried' by my team because I have crap gear and no hope of attaining better gear without it being a full time gaming job. I realize that these are my issues but I would still appreciate a way to earn better gear on my own. Is there anything worse in game than getting booted from your group because of your gear? When this happens it makes people not want to even *try* the harder content. | |} ---- ---- Actually at the level of difficulty of this content you can easily scale between 1 and 2 people, especially considering that every class can heal or tank. | |} ---- The bolded is your problem, and why trinity based games with rigid classes do not commit time to difficult solo content. Stalker tanks already can solo 5-man mobs, so how do you balance the content around that? Each class solos 2-3+ mobs in a slightly different way and different mobs and abilities are more or less difficult, so how do you create and balance encounters for that? Solo progression should be in the game, but with the current set-up of Wildstar solo encounters designed to be difficult (e.g. not trying to solo 2-3+ mobs) are not worth the effort. | |} ---- Ya I had no idea, I've been keeping my head in the sand involving any W* update lately so that I don't get my hopes up or set myself up to hate it just cause. Which this is one of those things I'm inclined to hate just cause, solo content with carrots and sticks toward character progression feels forced.. Solo content in an MMO is isolating and I'm going to go in there to knock it out asap to just be done with it or ignore it entirely if the means of character progression isn't BiS for entry raids/PvP. | |} ---- ---- They are nerfing Stalker's self-heal, right? Regarding how you balance different classes working differently, I have faith they can do it. But the cheap way would be to make there be 6 different bosses, each one designed tuned to be natural for one class and not-as-great-a-fit for the others and then put all the bosses in one instance. | |} ---- ---- Soloing Rotter with my DPS Esper is trivially easy. I don’t think my shield gets completely depleted before I down him. I don’t bother with interrupts and maybe, if I’m being “good”, I’ll use my innate. Like everything else, stay out of the red and it’s pretty easy with this guy. The Toxic Empress is easy, as long as I stay out of her burrowing telegraph. Even with 2 dashes, there is little room for error here and sometimes the game thinks I’m in the red when I’m not (I’m barely not). I can eat one, and still win, but eat 2 and I’m done. For these solo instances, difficulty like Toxic Empress would be a good place to start, though I know that level of difficulty may give some solo players/classes too much difficulty. | |} ---- Er. No, you don't have to do that at all. The solo instances are already tuned to be doable by anyone regardless of role. *is probably late because work* | |} ---- Yes they are, but they aren't making those changes for solo reasons/balance. The issue is when you start balancing for solo, dungeon, raid, pvp you can create a mess (just balancing PVE vs. PVP is enough of a headache). You can certainly make solo content more challenging than it is right now, but there is a cap to the challenge you can create with Wildstar's current class design and have it still be balanced across all classes. The cap to that challenge is lower than the challenge you can create in even a 2-person group, and that is outside any sort of coordination difficulty that is introduced. It is not economical to create 6 different and difficult encounters, compared to just making easier content that can be completed by any class, but still provides rewards and progression (which is really what most players want). Solo only players that want difficulty can find it in soloing things that aren't meant to be soloed. | |} ---- To be clear, what I meant was all classes do all six bosses, it's just that of the six, each class encounters one tuned perfectly for them and has to deal with 5 others that are probably too easy or not as fun. But actually, I think Carbine could do better than that. Not saying it's realistic to have in game. I do think it would be fun, though. | |} ---- ---- Derailed! Have you seen Star Trek? The needs of the many only ever outweigh the needs of the few so long as Starfleet gets to decide who needs what. Every incarnation of that show is a massive hypocrisy, "We are not a military organization, we are explorers!" ...right... whatever helps you sleep better, cap'n. CONTINUE UNNECESSARILY LONG THREAD! | |} ---- Don't worry. The itchy fingers of the mods will come along soon. Any large thread risks drawing the gaze of Sauron. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ----